I built this guitar about 8 years ago almost entirely using CA. IIRC the only joint I did not use CA for was the Bridge and FB extension. It was an experiment of sorts but so far no problems.
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| CA. Super Glue. Boon or Bane? http://www-.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10101&t=47665 |
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| Author: | Mike OMelia [ Wed Apr 20, 2016 10:25 pm ] |
| Post subject: | CA. Super Glue. Boon or Bane? |
Of course, for guitar builders only. In another thread I saw a discussion of using CA to fix an X-brace problem. Ugh. What did builders do before CA? I get that in the age of high tech polyester finishes, there is a place for CA in repair work. But man, can I recount nightmares using it in the build process. Need I mention that ugly yellow reaction with some spruce? And, the type of bond is nothing like tite bond or hide glue from a repair or flexibility perspective. This is an open discussion. But if a new builder were to ask me, I'd say avoid it. Except for things like fret work, side dots, and maybe some inlay work. CA is brittle. Epoxy is flexible. Tite bond is flexible. The last two are repairable. CA is an amazing thing, but think twice before using. Once u have stained a top, there is nothing u can do about it. Flood fill with something else. |
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| Author: | meddlingfool [ Wed Apr 20, 2016 11:55 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: CA. Super Glue. Boon or Bane? |
Like anything, it has its place and you need to decide what those places are for you. |
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| Author: | Ken Franklin [ Thu Apr 21, 2016 2:19 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: CA. Super Glue. Boon or Bane? |
meddlingfool wrote: Like anything, it has its place and you need to decide what those places are for you. +1 |
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| Author: | DennisK [ Thu Apr 21, 2016 5:58 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: CA. Super Glue. Boon or Bane? |
Both. I hate using it, but I love having it available. There are no tasks where I truly require it, but it often allows me to save some time, or save some material that would otherwise be unusable. And its bonding properties are interesting... most glues are stronger in shear than in tension, but CA is just the opposite. Incredible strength in tension, but snaps right off if you smack it from the side. Most parts of a guitar need the shear strength of normal glue, but there are certain things like fret ends trying to pop up where the tension strength is useful, and sticking the nut in place where the brittleness is useful. |
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| Author: | kencierp [ Thu Apr 21, 2016 6:06 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: CA. Super Glue. Boon or Bane? |
CA is a marvelous invention -- even used to save lives in the medical field, it certainly has its place in our arena, like any other adhesive, tool, process, coating, it requires some knowledge and has a learning curve to get good/expected results. |
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| Author: | bftobin [ Thu Apr 21, 2016 7:13 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: CA. Super Glue. Boon or Bane? |
My wife is a custom jewelry maker and I borrowed some of her Gorilla brand CA one day. Great strength and some flexibility, they say it's 'rubberized'. Much more versatile than the regular stuff. Brent |
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| Author: | Jeffrey L. Suits [ Thu Apr 21, 2016 11:01 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: CA. Super Glue. Boon or Bane? |
bftobin wrote: My wife is a custom jewelry maker and I borrowed some of her Gorilla brand CA one day. Great strength and some flexibility, they say it's 'rubberized'. Much more versatile than the regular stuff. Brent I use this for installing SBTs. |
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| Author: | Quine [ Thu Apr 21, 2016 12:32 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: CA. Super Glue. Boon or Bane? |
Its just another adhesive material that has pro's and con's like all the others and therefore, good applications and bad applications. Great for inlays, drop filling, gap filling mixed with sawdust, bindings etc. Not good for structural bonds. |
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| Author: | bluescreek [ Thu Apr 21, 2016 3:13 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: CA. Super Glue. Boon or Bane? |
the more I do in this industry the less I use CA , while it is nice to have on the shelf it is a no no on vintage repair but if you have a Krafter or Hondo it is the perfect glue. |
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| Author: | jfmckenna [ Thu Apr 21, 2016 3:27 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: CA. Super Glue. Boon or Bane? |
I built this guitar about 8 years ago almost entirely using CA. IIRC the only joint I did not use CA for was the Bridge and FB extension. It was an experiment of sorts but so far no problems.
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| Author: | Bryan Bear [ Thu Apr 21, 2016 4:19 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: CA. Super Glue. Boon or Bane? |
I like that blonde on blond look with the darker neck! |
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| Author: | kencierp [ Thu Apr 21, 2016 7:37 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: CA. Super Glue. Boon or Bane? |
Food for thought ---- Mike Doolin uses CA to fasten steel string "pinless bridges" |
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| Author: | bftobin [ Thu Apr 21, 2016 8:00 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: CA. Super Glue. Boon or Bane? |
IIRC Rick Turner glues bridges on with it too, on top of the finish. No scraping etc Brent |
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| Author: | printer2 [ Thu Apr 21, 2016 8:35 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: CA. Super Glue. Boon or Bane? |
Holding the side to the top and giving a squirt along the edge, half a minute and do the next section.  Gave the linings a little while I was at it.  Mind you it was just an experimental build and I did not go to great lengths to make it pretty, so far holding up well enough. Would have used regular glue on a normal instrument. 
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| Author: | Bob Shanklin [ Thu Apr 21, 2016 11:36 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: CA. Super Glue. Boon or Bane? |
And, its great for closing wounds in fingers rather than going for stitches. Bob |
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| Author: | Hesh [ Fri Apr 22, 2016 6:30 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: CA. Super Glue. Boon or Bane? |
Couple things to mention here. First I never liked building with super glue beyond fret markers, gluing in frets, and getting on folks for using it for bindings when bindings are by their very nature supposed to cushion any blows to the edges of the instruments which can.... actually exploit what super glues does the least well, sheer. That aside and time tends to soothe all things...  I'm much less militant these days and really don't care all that much what others are doing, I just still won't do it....This aside I wanted to fill in some blanks here because details matter. Regarding Rick Turner gluing on bridges with super glue there is MUCH more to the story than that. Rick pioneered the use of Cat Poly for small builders around 10 years ago and he was active on the OLF at that time and told us all about it. It was one of the most fascinating exchanges in forum history IIRC because another "super" member, Mario P. had just discovered that his health issues with nitro threatened to end his Lutherie career. Had Mario not collaborated with Rick in making Cat Poly work Mario might be doing something else these days. As such we all watched and learned and we learned that Cat Poly was not your Dad's French Polish. Instead the stuff is likely the most tenacious, toughest finish ever commonly and commercially employed for Lutherie use. It's tough as nails and chiseling it off will tell you this. As such when a bridge is glued to a super tough finish that does NOT have adhesion problems all bets are off in terms of convention here and the process not only may work it does work and has worked for years for those who do it. Remember though super glue is not the trick that makes this work, Cat Poly and knowing how to apply it correctly is likely far more key here to this working than what super glue anyone uses. Joe White will remember all of this too I am sure in so much as this historic exchange between Mario and Rick was also the very start of Joe White offering his superb (and super tough) Cat Poly finishes and IIRC Burton and Hesh here were Joe's very first ever suckers, er... clients.... We love ya Joe and hope that you are well!A month ago a local pro player brings in a $5 - 8K classical that he got off someone for far less than it's worth... and wanted to flip. At our business we are not interested in anything commercial when it comes to folks flipping or selling instruments and in fact we avoid any involvement with a passion. Often folks wish to enlist repair Luthiers to enable their flipping desires and that's not our bag so we stay out of it.... with a passion.... and usually some stern warning to not get us involved either. The guitar had a lifting bridge that some yahoo had squirted super glue in the lift and not even attempted to clamp it down. It's up, ugly, shows lots of super glue, and looked terrible. Inside a crack next to a fan brace had been cleated with a slice of a 2 X 4.... that was approx. 1" X 3" X 1/4" and not feathered at all in the least. It was smashed in there with a judicious puddle of more super glue which had dripped from the top to the back and all over the place. I declined the job. This is not unusual for us we have a waiting list and more business than we can can handle and as such we have some ability to pick and choose what kind of debacles we wish to get involved in. Flippers are not high on the list as mentioned because their business model at times, not always, conflicts with ours. Doing the minimum to get by is not how we roll. I advised the flipper to take it somewhere else OR describe it accurately as having been the victim of some terrible repairs in the past, super glue repairs, remember, this thread is about super glue? What makes super glues not suitable for many Lutherie applications is the unserviceability of the joint. We can't make it release reliably with heat and or steam and even though we can still remove it at times it's a pain and not nearly as serviceable as say HHG or even Titebond Original or Fish. The instrument had lost some value because of the poor choice of glue for the repairs and may lose even more value depending on who does what next with the poor thing. Again for those without a waiting list and lots of time on their hands the poor repairs could be redone but the risk is far higher for whom ever does it. Repairs that never should migrate into the scope creep of say finish repairs will often with super glue because of it's inability to be reliably removed in a predictable manner. So sure you can build what ever you wish with super glue and it may even stay together longer than we will on this planet but it's frowned upon and with good reason. It can harm the value of valuable or even not so valuable instruments and one A lister who frequents our shop found out the hard way how easy it is to get on a battery bag and glue his palm to his serial number 001 Martin signature edition.... Dave got his skin off the Martin so no worries.. These days we use it for fretting and some finish repairs and we like Glue Boost a great deal. But you won't see us using it for much more unless it's a joint that will never conceivably need servicing again or some other creative, yet to be encountered possible use. There are some very good reasons why glues such as HHG, Fish, even Titebond original have stood the test of time - they work.... |
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| Author: | jfmckenna [ Fri Apr 22, 2016 8:18 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: CA. Super Glue. Boon or Bane? |
printer2 wrote: Holding the side to the top and giving a squirt along the edge, half a minute and do the next section. The speed at which you can get things done makes it so tempting to use all the time though doesn't it? For the one I built I remember doing the bracing with just finger pressure then boom done on to the next one. |
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| Author: | Lonnie J Barber [ Sat Apr 23, 2016 5:11 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: CA. Super Glue. Boon or Bane? |
I use CA occasionally only where nothing else works. I admitted this to kencierp once he told me Orville Gibson probably would have used it at times if it had been available. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk |
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| Author: | printer2 [ Sat Apr 23, 2016 7:30 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: CA. Super Glue. Boon or Bane? |
jfmckenna wrote: printer2 wrote: Holding the side to the top and giving a squirt along the edge, half a minute and do the next section. The speed at which you can get things done makes it so tempting to use all the time though doesn't it? For the one I built I remember doing the bracing with just finger pressure then boom done on to the next one. I only used it for the top to attach to the sides and neck. The bracing on the top was done with Titebond as well as the back. I guess you could do them also with CA. I used to use CA when I made RC aircraft and had no issue gluing the ribs to the sheeting. Can't remember having problems repairing them, I was a better builder than flyer. One of the reasons I built this guitar like I did is I never had any molds other than for bending and the shape was drawn onto the top. That is the reason for the square, to sort of keep things from getting way out of whack. I do take reasonably good care of the guitar above as it is all made of softwood and would not appreciate being knocked around. As seen in the pictures I didn't do a rosette or binding, which saved some time, and the construction only took me two weeks. A lot of the time was trying to figure out what I was doing, never built a nylon or in the Spanish style before. The bridge was bought for $3, I had no issue putting it on a guitar that I was unsure of how it would turn out. I could easily see being able to build another one in a weekend if I was well prepared, not looking for tools and getting distracted by other things. |
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| Author: | Terence Kennedy [ Sun Apr 24, 2016 8:20 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: CA. Super Glue. Boon or Bane? |
I couldn't live without thin superglue and accelerator. Another vote for the GluBoost stuff, especially the accelerator. |
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| Author: | Mike OMelia [ Sun Apr 24, 2016 9:47 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: CA. Super Glue. Boon or Bane? |
I should add that I do not disdain CA. Quite the opposite. My shop would be incomplete without it. It definitely has its place on the quick access shelf. Getting ready to order some of that glue boost. And accelerant. Picked up a new idea for bonding the nut. But for wood to wood, no way. There's just no flexibility and repairability. Enjoyed reading all of your comments! |
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| Author: | kencierp [ Mon Apr 25, 2016 1:01 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: CA. Super Glue. Boon or Bane? |
In the 45 or so years I have been using CA to bond wood on wood I have never had problems -- actually other than my first bad experience of the end grain sucking up the adhesive and Spruce turning it bright yellow green, live and learn. High quality CA formulated for wood is just like Titebond as far as strength, pulling it apart will peel off the wood surface. Interesting we want/like HHG to be hard as a rock and brittle (I see this when comparing it to Titebond) -- but CA is flawed because its supposed to flex? Not sure I get that? I believe its been mentioned but worth repeating -- high quality CA and generic or even brand name "SuperGlue" is not the same. Buy the good stuff! I have been using Hot Stuff as long as I can remember. I certainly am not recommending complete construction of guitars with CA, just don't over look the versatility of CA -- it can simplify some build situations if one takes time to learn the usage parameters. Lastly CA can be disassembled chemically and yes with applied heat! Description US-1 is a 2oz bottle of our Super Solvent CA glue debonder US-1 Super Solvent is the very best product to debond and dissolve CA glue from Satellite City Instant Glues, and it will also remove super glue made by other companies. Just a little bit is usually enough to unstick your hands and remove the CA glue, and as Super Solvent does not go bad with age, it makes sense to always have a bottle within the reach of your non-glued hand! You can also avoid getting your fingers glued in the first place by using our poly gloves for CA glue. Of the other super glue removers available, nearly all are essentially acetone. While acetone is effective at dissolving CA glue, it works slowly and can be damaging to many different materials. Our Super Solvent is NOT acetone- Super Solvent is a nitroalkane formula that dissolves CA glue faster and is also much less likely to damage the surface to which it is applied. Super Solvent is safe to use with most paints and finishes, but some fabrics, colorings, and materials may be affected. We recommend always testing on an inconspicuous area first. You can also use Super Solvent to remove other adhesives and adhesive residue- for example, sticky price tags that leave a mess when you try to peel them off- and to clean surfaces, especially metal. There are several ways to apply Super Solvent. If you have glued your fingers together, apply a few drops at a time to the glued skin and rub the Super Solvent into the CA glue. Alternatively, wet a soft cloth with the Super Solvent and apply the cloth to the glue. The nitromethane will evaporate fairly quickly (although more slowly than acetone), so repeat this process until you have unstuck your fingers or whatever appendages you have unintentionally bonded. After you are unstuck, you can continue to apply Super Solvent to the CA glue to turn it into a slimy substance that can be washed off with soap and warm water. Avoid getting the Super Solvent on damaged skin, on lips, or in your mouth or eyes. To debond materials you have glued together or remove CA glue from a surface, apply the Super Solvent directly to the cured glue and rub it in with a soft cloth. Periodically attempt to pull the surfaces apart gently, and continue the process until they separate. The Super Solvent works quickly, but it only affects the CA glue it directly contacts. If you are removing a thin layer or dissolving an exposed bondline, the process will be relatively quick. However, if you are trying to dissolve a very thick layer of CA glue or debonding parts where the bond is difficult for the Super Solvent to reach, the process can take much longer. If you are in one of these tough situations, you have a couple of options. If you are debonding or removing CA glue from the surface of small parts, you can fill up a container with our Super Solvent and leave the part to soak in it. If the parts are large, you can soak them in acetone instead. It will take longer, but it is more economical for big jobs. If you are trying to remove a thick layer of CA glue from a non-porous surface, you can apply a larger amount of the Super Solvent to the glue and seal it with plastic wrap. This will allow the Super Solvent to work longer on the cured glue before it evaporates. This is very effective on metal surfaces, and you can use a scraping tool in between applications to remove the weakened glue so the Super Solvent can work on the next layer. If the methods above are impractical, you can use heat instead. Instant glue weakens at high temperatures. Satellite City CA glues will start to melt at about 330 degrees Fahrenheit. You can use an oven, heat gun or other method to get the glue to this temperature. Note that cured CA glue is combustible and can catch fire if flame is directly applied to it. Super Solvent and our SprayNCure accelerators are flammable, so be sure that the parts are clean before applying heat. Satellite City is not responsible for any damage you cause or incur when using this method |
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